Black holes, bright galaxies emerge from dust
Hidden behind dust in deep space are brilliant galaxies with black holes that scientists are just beginning to learn about.
NASA’s Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, known as WISE, has found millions of black holes and about 1,000 dust-obscured galaxies with very high temperatures, which NASA is cutely calling "hot DOGs" for short. They are believed to be the brightest known galaxies.
Hot DOGs, which have supermassive black holes at their centers, can emit more than 100 trillion times as much light as the sun, according to researchers. But they do not appear as bright in images because they are covered in dust.
“It changes our concept of how brilliant and powerful galaxies can be,” said Peter Eisenhardt, project scientist for WISE at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. “We are finding quite a few objects here that are brighter than what we knew before, and we’ve only combed through about 10% of these hot DOGs.”
Black holes are extremely dense objects from which no light can escape, but high-energy radiation is produced when gas and dust get sucked in. Material around the black hole forms what's called an accretion disc, constantly spiraling toward the black hole. X-ray radiation is emitted as matter gets compressed by the black hole. There is a massive black hole in the center of our galaxy, too.
WISE is equipped with a telescope that captured millions of images of celestial objects, including black holes, galaxies, stars and asteroids. The information obtained from WISE may help scientists explore the relationship between black holes and their surrounding galaxies.
The state-of-the-art technology of WISE allowed scientists to discover that the 2.5 million black holes were nearly 10 billion light-years away. Older technology was unsuccessful at detecting them because of dust, which concealed the black holes’ existence. WISE, however, captured them immediately.
“These varied black holes that are hidden in gas and dust are thought to dominate and we have not had a good measurement of how many there are until now,” said Daniel Stern of JPL, lead author of the WISE black hole study. “WISE has allowed us to do this across the whole sky.”
Stern added that the next steps will be to find out how black holes behave and examine the high-energy X-ray radiation associated with them. NASA's Nuclear Spectroscopic Telescope Array, for which Stern is the project scientist, launched in June to explore black holes with its "X-ray eyes."
WISE also found that the extreme galaxies have temperatures more than double those of other galaxies that burn with infrared light. One possible explanation is that, in a hot DOG, a powerful burst of activity from the black hole heats the dust in the galaxy.
The WISE mission orbited the Earth approximately 15 times daily for 14 months at an altitude of 525 kilometers (326 miles). Snapshots of the sky were captured every 11 seconds.
Most of WISE's findings have been confirmed by the W.M Keck Observatory in Mauna Kea, Hawaii, the Gemini Observatory of Chile, Palomar’s 200-inch Hale telescope in California and the Multiple Mirror Telescope Observatory near Tucson, Arizona.
Eisenhardt says it is still unclear which the hot DOGS produce first - the black hole or the rest of the galaxy’s stars. But he points out some evidence showing that black holes may come first or, as he put it, “the ‘eggs’ may have come before the ‘chickens.’” More research is needed to validate the sequence of creation within hot DOGS.
It's clear that black holes aren't rare, and have been around for a long time. Research published last year suggested that at least 30 million black holes had formed before the universe was 1 billion years old.
WISE's mission will open a new door into the world of galaxy evolution in coming years, experts say. With more extensive research, NASA’s findings could change the landscape of astronomical science - or as Eisenhardt put it, “push the boundaries of what we think is physically possible.”
The observations were published in the Astrophysical Journal in three papers. You can read them here, here, and here.
CNN's Elizabeth Landau contributed to this report.
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The real Truth about black holes are in the sensational book The Dimension Machine
Sensationally bad, Rudi. The truth may be out there, but it certainly isn't in your book. Sorry.
I checked out Rudi's webpage for said book and there were three typos in the "About the author" info.
Hmmmm....
Ahhhh going with the ol' fire insurance bit are we. Oldie but a goodie for you guys.
I hope Mfarnsworth is a troll. No one can be that stupid…. Can they?
TELETRANSPORTER of the FUTURE.
use logic please mr.snow boarder read the bible it does not say that the world isnt billions of years old . god works in mysterious ways get that through your thick skull.
the bible is only a book of stories written by man. nothing more.
Two 850 XP Polaris would travel well in space!
Actually I'm betting that if I am wrong, and when I die and face him/her/it, I'll be able to look God in the eye and say, "Oh, well I was wrong, you do exist. Thank you for giving me the freedom to doubt you and be proven wrong."
Where is our origin? How come this whole world came to begin. where is the home town of the wind that passes-by us all day and where are they going? all these planet that are surrounding who positioned them? so who created the mind that our scientist uses to discover that already exist? before these scientist would ever find all these and many more of this, the created already knows. There is God, and whether HE or SHE is still alive.
Have some patience dude! Even Einstein didn't scream E=mc2 on the day he was born!
Seriously... can we have ONE post in the science section without some idiot bringing up religion. It's why 90% of the world thinks we are all backwoods morons in this country. Religion is fine, but if there is a God, he's a kid with an ant farm. Yes, he may have started it, and check in time to time, but really, how much do you care about the 1000s of ants in an ant farm? You care about the group as a whole, but not individually.
Same thing with politics. Who cares about Obama and Romney on this post... or your thoughts on the matter. This is knowledge for knowledges sake. The more we learn, struggle, fight... the more we move forward and evolve as a species. Let us geeks have our science. Let us have our dreams of far off worlds and aliens (which most likely exist given how massive the universe is). Let us learn and grow as individuals. Stop injecting your beliefs and politics into our scientific joy. There are other places for those things.... this isn't it.
The Universe began in when an infinitely dense and infinitely small dimensionless point exploded for reasons unknown. When did it happen? Well in theory there was "no time" until time was created in the Big Bang. Where did it happen? Well in theory in didn't happen anyplace because there was no "place", no "space" for it to occur in because "space" was created in the Big Bang.
Science explains to us "how" things work. It does not explain "why" they work the way they do.
So some among us take to calling "religious" people dumb because they assign the "why" of things to a Creator. Science admits they don't have a notion of the "why" although proudly says they are discovering the "how".
So now lets compare notes. Some believe is all began with the explosion taking place "at no time at no place". Some attribute the "explosion" to an outside force. SO WHAT?
Who sounds like nonsense? It just happened "no place" and when "well at no time did it happen". Or the cause was greater than the effect and that "explosion" did have a cause. Call it what you will. Something happened, "the Universe" began.
Religion and Science, "why" and "how".
Does it really cause me pain that my neighbor prays? Does it make my bills higher or make my car break down? Yet it offers my neighbor some comfort in troubled times and make them lead a better life. And it even makes him prone to help me when he sees me struggle with something. It makes him feel responsible and contribute to the poor, sick, homeless, etc.
My own opinion is that religious people have hope in hopeless situations where I deal with plain despair. Both of us in a same situation, may end up with the same results but they at least had hope cushioning their trials.
Live and let live. I don't see many religious posts calling strict believers in Science "dumb" or other names just for their beliefs.
So lets just stop. For the "intellectuals" out their this question "does it really make you feel so superior to call religious people 'dopes'"? If religion helps them be better, happier and lead lives more full for hope then more power to them. It it doesn't help you then it also shouldn't be hurting you either. After all does a child's belief in Santa Claus really cause you pain? If so then I guess you're not such an objective "intellectual" after all.
F&F
come on guys lets keep science and religion seperate
Redskinsfan...Thank you!
If God was driving around at the speed of light... and then turned on his headlights... could he see the light in front of him? Or would he just reach down and continue to eat his jujubee's?
I'd be more concerned about whether he'd stop texting and look up before he rear-ended me. I hate getting rear-ended by God.
there is no particular reason to believe that to be true.
No not theist, just ignorant. There is a difference. You can believe in God and be perfectly rational and acknowledge all scientific discoveries. I believe in God, but I don't KNOW that he exists. It remains a belief...
Arguing that people should believe in God because if they don't and he's real they'll be "screwed" is a pretty bad argument. If you're saying you believe in God as a way of hedging your bets, then you don't believe in God at all – you're a gambler, playing the odds.
What makes these hot DOGS so difficult to detect us that they are encased in Bright Undefined Nebular Structures.
Nice, well done. I see what you did there.
Why doesn't CNN have an upvote button...
Well done!
Got it!.... and it was quite clever of you...
The picture is an illustration, not an actual photo. Just like God there's still no evidence of black holes. I'm not saying they don't exist, just provide some evidence they do. As for the God argument, it's a belief. If you are a believer fine, just don't try to scare others into your belief. I find people that do that are insecure about their beliefs and try to convince others in order to feel better about what they believe.
Based on observations of the center of the Milky Way, multiple stars are speeding around a distinct area at very high speeds in elliptical orbits. They are going around something not visible. That is pretty good facts concerning the existence of something there, call it what you will.
you never know there could be other intelligent organisams on other planets trillions of miles away
"... there's still no evidence of black holes." Ever hear of Cygnus X-1? Any other ideas as to what that x-ray source could be, since it's apparently too compact to be a neutron star? Either your statement is made out of a lack of knowledge (or misunderstanding of astronomy) or else is patently false. For kindness' sake I'll go with the former. Please, learn something before making foolish posts like the one you made. HTH
It's not about belief, the fact with God is that, it is true, how did you come here in this world, who created all these things, science helps us to discover what God has already created. People of this world should know n must accept that there's a God who owns all these things and care for them all. God bless us all.
It is a belief.. and one without proof. That is why they call it faith. Get a dictionary.
God obviously doesn't care about your literacy.
Thank you for acknowledging that science has a place alongside your faith. Too many people of faith loudly declaim that everything we need to know is in the book, and if it's not in the book it's not worth knowing; therefore there is no need to investigate, to learn, to question.
I'm going to go all Sikh on you here for a moment and say that it is not possible to contradict god. If something appears to be a contradiction, you must attempt to understand why this is so. God is bigger than any book. Truth is deeper than words that are many translations away from their original writing.
What I found alarming in your post were the two words: "must accept."
Does anybody else here get the implications I'm getting from that?
If we all "must accept" god, the next pregnant question is: "How to you intend to enforce it?"
And that, my dears, is where the core, the essence, of religion threatens every human on the planet. ALL religion.
Because we all "must accept" what they tell us to. And will take up arms, commit any atrocity, in order to make us do it.
Islam is quite visibly doing it right now, most actively. But our own taliban-ish faiths are working themselves up into a frenzy for doing the precise same things. Which makes the innate evil of religion all too clear. Given free rein, every religion on the planet will become jihadish. Nobody fights harder than someone who is being "righteous" and "fighting for GOD"! Who would DARE to tell them not to?
I would.
"If you won't believe what we tell you that you "must accept" and believe, then we'll force you to do it. Because, after all, it is only right and righteous; it's God's Will." – this is how the whacked-outs think. And it is dangerous to civilization itself, and to all humanity. Religion must be allowed – there is no choice. But it also MUST be controlled. If religion only served to make people "better," it'd be fine, but it is never that way. It seeks total power in the world, nothing less will do.
This is why religion is both necessary to most people's senses of security, and the worst scourge humanity has ever faced.
People WILL HAVE their belief systems. Nothing can stop that, not even making war on them. But by accepting the existence of religions, and encouraging tolerance of them, we are also opening the door for them to try to take over – everything.
Which they are doing.
Unless we draw some big fat red lines that none may dare to cross without serious consequences, religion will ALWAYS get out of control and become unutterably evil.
Don't you DARE tell ME what I "must accept"!
There's a lot more evidence for black holes than there is for a god.
Can't have a CNN article without referencing the "great debate"....
Listen, if you are talking about Christians, if someone is trying to warn you, you should really see that as a compassionate gesture to spare you a lot of suffering and misery. The people you should be angry at are the believers who do NOT say anything to you. That means they are indifferent toward your future.
we have seen black holes already... get your facts right. They distort light around them which looks like a distorted mosaic of stars...
@FBC..
er.. you can't SEE a black hole. thats rather why its called a black hole. a gravity well so powerful, that even light can't escape it. .
Now we have a lot of other ways to detect them, thier gravity lenseing, thier gravity effect upon others objects around them. X-ray and other high energy releases. (which actualy don't come FROM the black hole but from the area just out side it, the "event horizon"
but we can not actualy SEE it... :p
What if God likes people who are atheists? People who, within the universe he has created, accept the most likely conclusion, despite threats to their eternal life.
I mean, if I was God, and created this world to basically run on it's own and really didn't intervene, just observed, those are the people I'dnprefer.
Not sure how god came into this discussion, but I do not think anyone understands God enough. There is definitely intelligent creation. I don't believe that a bunch of rocks exploded accidentally (Big Bang) and now we are sitting here commented on a chat. Evolution was put into motion by high intelligence. The big bang did happen and this has been proven mathematically, but the question remains "what put it into motion" and what is causing the universes continued expansion? Dark matter/energy seems to be the culprit, but they haven't proven what drives that yet. Don't be foolish in life, keep an open mind to the facts and also be willing to listen to theories. Don't be a bunch of dumb %ucks like you all have been posting in here. Use your intellect and be innovative, this is the only way to find the answers.
I believe in god. Just not your god. Since yours sounds like an ars hole bigger than the black hole here. ^^
Dont be so proud to assume you grt into heaven so easily. Maybe god will strike you down for not believing hard enough. Better go pray the gay away before you do something you regret....again.
God created the universe. Who created God. No one he is eternal. But would it not be simpler to say that the universe is eternal and skip the God part? Lemme think about that for a while, we have only had 4000 years to think about it so it might take a while, I'll text you....
Only 4000 years to think about it? You're off by several orders of magnitude. Try 4.56 billion years for the earth and at least 1.2 million years for proto-humans. And the sun should burn for at least another 4.5 billion years, but don't think that there will still be anyone here for the sun will go into a Red Giant phase, destroying the inner planets (Mercury, Venus and Earth) before blowing off its ourter layers, leaving only a White Dwarf. That's going to ruin everybody's day, for sure ...
But if we're right and there isn't a GOD, you'll have squandered your limited amount of time on earth trying to convince people to believe in the same incorrect ideas as you.
Oh my, you are an entertaining one. So, just HOW do you "know"? And where can I find Satan? is he at the NRC right now?
How long WILL the earth last? Do you get your calculations the same way that Harold Camping did? See, computer models indicate that life on earth will cease in about 500 – 900 million years, due to the sun getting hotter and eventually killing off plants that create oxigen, the oceans will evaporate a billion years later...
Jesus told his diciples that they would see the rapture in their lifetime... we're still waiting...
Logically, and also according to the Bible, God is Hermaphroditic, both genders. Hence the story says "God made man in His own image, male and female... " although later in the story he splits "man" apart.
Oh please share the verse and version of Bible in which you are quoting this from... *giggle*
KJV Genesis 1: 26, 27
Okay, I am being a bit frivolous, but then you are too. Seriously though, if you consider this with an open mind you will be able to understand why Hermetics say this.
KJV Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam came first, then came Eve some time later... Man, your devinely inspired book of absolute truth sure can't seem to keep the story straight.
fimeilleur: You believe the Bible is divinly inspired? Really?
Nope, That's just what people tell me everytime I point out that it was written by many men who tend to weave tales and exagerate truths... especially several years after the fact... after all, Adam and Eve didn't write the book of Genesis now did they?
I think their is more truth and honesty found in Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and StarWars. At least these authors were honest enough to state that their writings are a work of fiction.
Fimeilleur, we meet again. Remember me? I bet you don't.
Yes I remember you Jim, have you learned anything new since our last discussion?
To be completely honest, this is the first Light Years Blog post I have read since the last one we debated on. You?
I'm still very much firm in my faith, if thats what you mean.
I've missed these very pointless arguments via biased news blog. Some of these people (not you fimielleur) are extremely idiotic and have no ability to argue either way with any logical points.
No, I've gone and had myself many debates since... Still haven't met anyone able to refute anything I've stated... you're welcome to try again... feel free to search this thread for anything we haven't covered yet...
There are too many trolls to try and navigate through this whole thread. I've actually had many interesting thoughts about the beginning of the Universe. What is it that you have on that? I'd really like a good debate on this.
Do any of your thoughts involve an all powerful god that caused the whole thing? or do you want to debate the differences between the Big Bang theory vs the Multiverse theory vs the elastic band theory (perpetual cycles of contraction and expansion).
If your answer is a, you must first define your god and then I'll blow you out of the water.
If your answer is b, I will premise the debate with I am not a theoretical physicist and am not 100% conversant in all the different ideas. (how's that for honesty)
Ok, first question, what was there before our Universe? I of course do not believe that the Earth is only 2000 years old, but I do believe that something had to exist before our Universe was "created". I do not follow the Bible word for word because, as you said before, the Bible is flawed. But the reason it is flawed is because the books were written by humans. The Bible is the word of God, but written by humans, which naturally flaws the Bible in some points, but not the overall truths. But I don't want to debate the Bible. RIght now, my belief is that there was a creator that set the Universe into motion.
According to the Big Bang theory, the singularity was before the present universe. How long was it there, how did it get there, etc nobody knows. Saying a creator god made the singularity only adds another question, who made the creator god... let's stick to things we can be confident actually happened.
According to the elastic band theory, the universe is in a perpetual state of expansion and contraction... therefore nothing came before, as it has always been in motion. Adding a creator god just adds that same question.
According to the multiverse theory, we are but one universe among many (I think 11 is the current thought). It is thought that our universe was created when 2 universes collided with each other.
Which of these is correct? I don't know. I do know that apparent overall "truths" that are found in your bible are the same ones that are found in the vedas, the torah, the Quran, and various other holy texts from antiquities.
This is the problem with the xchans, mistranslated, edited and abridged holy book. If you actaully bothered to learn about the OT you'd realize that god created Adam and Lilith together and after Adam blew that, the OT God created Eve from Adam so she'd be subservient to him.
Poor Xchans you don't even know half of your so called 'religion' and yet you blather on and on and on.
a
If God is out their then let him give me break from these stupid religious posts.
CNN does have a religion section btw.
COSMIC MICROWAVE BACKROUND RADIATION IS WHAT HELPS DETERMINE THE AGE OF THE UNIVERSE
How did an article on black holes turn into an ugly debate about religion? You people just like to argue
When frothing at the mouth illiterate ignorant flat Earther funDUHmentalist Taliban Christians come in here spouting their extreme stupidity around educated people then educated, rational people are going to speak up. You have a problem with that?
I don't know if your talking about ALL Christians or just some of them, but let me say that not everyone who believes in God disbelieves in Science. To many of us science (gravity, relativity, evolution) is just a "how" and not the "why". I personally embrace scientific discovery, and also live comfortably with my personal beliefs. The only time I have any trouble at all is when people make broad generalizations about people of faith, saying that they believe in a "young / flat" earth. If you were not making that generalization, then this is not a rebuke on you, but if you were, let me correct you and tell you that not all People who believe in God also believe are against Science. In either case, your other comments (funDUHmentalist, taliban etc) are offensiver to anyone, religiouse or not, who come to read and talk about scientific progress and instead suffer your violent words.
@Nate:
A rational person? On this board?????
Better to do here than in the street.
What's with all these Christians on here threatening that their sky god is going to torture us for all eternity? Don't they realize this story is going to attract rational, skeptical people who don't believe in fairies, gods, leprachauns or ghosts or anything else that is supernatural? It must be horrible to be indoctrinated into a cult.
Such arrogance about something you could not possibly "know"...
A person who is really intelligent says.. "Anything is possible out there"...
Does that mean you're acknowledging the possible existence of "allah", "yaweh", "buddah", "krishna", "vishnu", "thor", "odin", "zeus", "hera", "flying spaghetti monster" and "invisible pink unicorn"?
@ Dave, don't forget, she has to admit that StarWars may not be a work of fiction, but the results of the Midi-chlorians located in George Lucas' blood inspiring him to write the saga.
Wake up all you guys who think your smarter than God! http://creation.com/the-gospel-in-time-and-space
My smarter than god what? I'm smarter than you: for example, I can spell "you're".
Good catch, I wasn't pretending to be smart, I was referring to people who think they are smarter than God. The Creation.com has a very smart man writing articles and it's difficult not being impressed. Geed luck. 🙂
LOL!!
All of the God debate aside (do you really think you will change each others opinions anyway), I think this is an amazing discovery and an amazing photograph... hats off to NASA! Thank you for your continued commitment and eagerness to want to learn more about the mysteries of our incredible universe.
@Me – That's not a photo, my man...
I believe in a steady state universe. I believe that the red shift that makes it seem that all stars are moving apart is caused by some force that we cannot detect.As Brian Hertz pointed out that is a very old and tired theory from 1929 and it has been disproved. What caused the theory to be disproved? The idea that light hits particles and that is what slows it down.My idea is that there is a very weak force that slows down light over great distances. The tired light theory was proven incorrect by the lack of blur from observations of distant objects, my theory would account for that lack of blur as it is a uniform effect and not caused by light bouncing off of particles but by a constant force.
It doesn't really matter what you believe. Science moves on without you.
Thomas , Darn I was hoping for an intelligent reply.
That WAS an intelligent reply!
I already apologized to Thomas for my snarky remark.
Yes, perhaps something such as the effects of the density of dark matter near and in the photons paths.
But, a supporting proof of the Red shift theory is the simple Doppler Effect of a passing train...
You can't just dream up some theory that you think makes sense and ask people to disprove it. Do the research, form a hypothesis, define an experiment, do the math, do the work and see where it ends up. Otherwise, you're just another crackpot throwing spit at the wall and hoping it will stick.
Sorry if I'm coming off like a jerk, but I think it's important to understand how the scientific method works. That's the only way we get anywhere with this stuff.
I totally agree with you. I am just talking about what I know little about.I do think someone should follow this line of inquiry though.
All good dude, didn't mean to jump down your throat.
NP I think I was the first offender. 🙂
No edit functions here so let me say I know I was the first offender.Sorry.
Your thoughts aren't remotely stupid. While current evidence does seem to point to a Big Bang, rather than the "continuous creation" that was espoused by (I think) Fred Hoyle long ago, I think it would be an error to ignore it. I have had many questions, myself, about how the farther an object is from us, the faster it is moving away from us. It fits with an expanding universe concept, but I haven't found all the answers given to be entirely decisive of the matter. The analogy of dots painted on a balloon that expand and separate from one another in all directions is a good one, but neither is it conclusive. Nor do I think enough thought has gone into the possibility that BOTH theories might apply, each in its own way. There's nothing that rules that out, and until something comes along that DOES rule it out, it, too, should be in the in-boxes of our scientists. If for no other reason than to get some conclusive evidence, one way or another. That is supposed to be what science does BEST.
The issue is further complicated by the recent discovery of dark matter and dark energy. These are only beginning to be studied. There is indeed a possibility that knowledge gained from that could conceivably turn scientific thought back to the concept of a universe where matter is being continually created, thus causing the apparent expansion. The "Big Bang" theory has a lot to back it up, though, so studies about continual creation of matter take a secondary priority, but which, I hope, isn't neglected until we KNOW it isn't operative in our cosmos.
I don't claim to have these answers. I can only hope that our scientists don't get too bogged down with the orthodoxy of current thought that they can't switch gears once in a while and look outside of the orthodoxy. So far, it doesn't appear that many are becoming overly rigid. Hope it stays that way.
lots of angry/ignorant atheists in here who are not thoughtful people – too much arrogance and foolishness to go around
atheists have their own brand of faith – they have decided to not believe in that which they don't understand, and their arrogance abounds
Actually, most atheists know the "bible" better than "christians" do. Which is why we became atheists.
If God is anything like his followers then I pray I never die.
Faith in what exactly, Ted?
these people have a right to be angry against a "religion" that professes the unconditional love of a god who demands conditions for salvation
Ignorant? Angry? I don't think so. I prefer to believe what I can see, feel, and reason out for myself. I am just not interested in somebody else's "magical being". As said below – I probably know the Bible better than most Christians and only find it contradicting and irrational...
Ted, you do know why Pascal's wager fails, right? Is that the "faith" you claim I have? You think I have faith that I will win this "wager"...
What if the Vedas are true, not the Bible?
What if the Quran is true, not the Bible?
What if the Torah is true, not the Bible?
What if....
No Ted, I don't need faith to see how absurd your argument is.
Ted, i think u got this one the other way around man... u see there is no such thing as an atheist... this is just a word made up to describe normal people who actually refuse to go along with "the flow" u see there is a famous saying tht goes like this: "not everything that is popular is right and not everything that is right is popular" point is, it is religious people who created the existence of "GOD" in order to explain natural occurring events that they did not understand.. on the other hand my friend, some people went on to study these events, patterns, cycles, n etc. in order to improve the conditions of life.. its a shame that in 1969 a man stepped on the moon n here in 2012 ppl still die everyday fighting over who has the better imaginary friend!! its a shame how the people suffering the most r the poor n uneducated simply because they have nowhere else to go but hope that there is this big guy looking down at them... u see if i came n told u to give me 10 dollars for an amazing afterlife id be arrested for fraud.. now tell me how does religion differ? if ur sister got pregnant n said she is still a virgin would u believe it? if a guy came up to u now n said i am here to save humanity would u believe him? u see there r ppl like that everyday we just laugh n walk right by them.. wat we fail to realize is that all these stories n different religions relate to each other.. now i am not trying to insult u or anyone.. but go do a little research and tell me how many religions from the beginning of time have their god born on dec 25th to a virgin mother? how many sun gods were dead for 3 days n then resurrected? how many gods have had THREE wise men visit them at birth bearing gifts? if u think thts a copyright of the bible think again my friend n go educate urself. while u r doing all that pls keep wat Stephen Roberts said : "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours!"
If I believe in God, and if you don't, and if YOU'RE right, and then we die...we'll both cease to exist.
That's a really good Future for us both, hmmmmmm?
But if I believe in God, and if you don't, and if I'M right, and then we die...you're screwed. 🙂
So, you believe in God out of fear of being wrong? Wow your faith goes really deep!!
@ MFarmsworth, Please see my comments above with regards to the failures of Pascal's Wager. His argument was refuted nearly as soon as he first spoke them.
Communication is a skill which confers respect toward the person with whom you are communicating, a word Latin form that implies. "We are One Together. Give us a little respect and blow off the n's and ur's and r's you splatter through your post. I'd like to read your ideas, bt yr nt mkn mch sns. Make an effort in this forum, or stk 2 yr clphn.
You are no different than they are. The only rational conclusion in agnosticism.
you are correct, it is the only 100 percent factual stance.
I don't know about that. 😛
Where are people like opwernby and Brian hertz who actually had intelligent input?
Thanks, man – that means a lot.
And when the sky was starless
In the void of the night
(Our God is an awesome God)
He spoke into the darkness
And created the light
(Our God is an awesome God)
Judgement and wrath
He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace
He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not
Too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God
Uh..... this forum is about space and not being spaced out.
Your "god" is an impotent, venal, jealous and abusive monster, according to your "bible". It committed rape and adultery to give birth to itself, so that it could torture and murder itself in order to save everybody from itself.
Many of Jesus' follwers and even his diciples were skeptical as well. But, they did change and they did spread the Good News. The thing the non believer doesn't posess is Faith. I love science and am constantly amazed by what we have been able to accomplish. Nevertheless, God created the heavens and us humans fall very short of His infinet wisdom.
His? Why his?
You know why skeptics don;t need "faith"? Because faith is an artificial construct, favored by those who possess no knowledge. Your "infinet" "god" falls very short on all the good qualities, but racks up impressive scores for evil, brutality, barbarism, cruelty, and terrorism.
@Kelly51,
Faith is the act of beLIEving in something in spite of having no rational reason for doing so. Synonyms for Faith includes GULIBLE, and NAIVE.
If faith is a virtue, stupidity must be an Olympic sport.
Kelly, God's infinite wisdom came up with Earthquakes, plague, cancer, wisdom teeth and weaponized animals that slice and dice each other. He condoned slavery, genocide, infanticide, misogyny, collateral damage, collective judgement and plans to torture for eternity those who have a philosophica difference with him. He recommends that if a woman is raped, the rapist simply pay off the father and the woman is to marry the rapist. If you discover your wife is not a virgin on your wedding night, make sure to stone her to death on her fathers doorstep. He sent his son to die an agonizing death to offset the sins of adam, if his son would have failed humanity would have been completely devoid of salvation. Does this sound like a wise character to you? A 5 year old could come up with better ideas than your deity.
I have to adree with Dave about the "True" nature of God, not only in the bible, but evidenced in this world daily......nothing to admire or even worship.......just to fear and be angry at
That was actually really brilliant and funny.
@dave
Skepticism
a : the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain
So....
Would you like them
in a house?
Would you like them
with a mouse?
I do not like them
in a house.
I do not like them
with a mouse.
I do not like them
here or there.
I do not like them
anywhere.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
I never met that author but I did get to meet Maury Sendak and he was cool. Where the Wild Things Are...
LMAO
Thanks for the laugh.
Get to know God... and you will be priviledged to all the knowledge on the universe one day.... if not, you'll exist eternally with the reminder that you could have.
Cheap threats only work on small minds.
Which one?
Promises, promises. Show me the money!
Yes...you will learn that we're all descended from an incestuous family in a magic garden that had a chit-chat with a talking snake; that a man can live in the belly of a fish for three days, and that the son of a magical being once walked the Earth where he turned water into wine and rose from the dead.
Get to know God? I'd rather get to know science.
That gives me a great idea for a book!
sorry you are so angry – I'd rather get to know both – and so would many other scientists – include Francis Collins
Notice how the believers in said magic demonize those who are not deluded as they are and call you "angry", "a hater" or any other name they can hurl at you?
Pffffft....outgrow your childish mythology and embrace knowledge.
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.- Mathew 7:13
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me." – Jesus, Luke 19:27
that scripture in and of itself is a testimony to God's so called unconditional love
dave –
jesus was (as normal with imperfect humans) preaching with a parable regarding a noble man going out to secure a kingdom who gave 10 chosen men money to accrue as they saw best, before he returned
the kingdom jesus set out to get secure is gods (his fathers not himself) heavenly kingdom and when he returns (to establish the earthly kingdom) he will see who took that "money" aka the truth (preach this good news of the kingdom to all the inhabited earth then the end will come..) and reward/punish those that were deemed good enough to carry his good news to others or those that could have and did nothing (blood lust)
there are couple parable's regarding this topic of truths and sharing/not sharing them
the ones to be executed in that parable before the noble or then king, are those knowing his truths and not sharing with those in need
since you or I cannot read hearts only he and his father will know who these individuals are
and I agree this conversation is out of context but could not let jesus go mis-interpreted, as he is so much with the educated and oblivious alike all too often
be well and try to have tolerance for your neighbor (us) please
jesus preached love and also to be prepared to love – not war with one another
matthew 5
Incorrect, every version of the "gospel" I've ever read stated conclusively that "jesus" was perfect in every way, and above such human things as fallibility. Face facts, he was a rape baby with the same jealousy and rage issues as his mythic "father".
rape baby?
You are stating that a virgin (Mary) was raped by the almighty god and that Jesus is a by product of her raping.
How interesting and twisted.
I would go into more detail to undo the mess you are attempting to create, but you have not even rebutted my explanation of Jesus parable.
It is inconceivable that a hateful man such as yourself could approach the holy scriptures and leave with understanding of their meaning(s).
Simply put you have more in common with law abiding, tax paying, quiet neighbors who are attempting to raise decent children for you to "tolerate".
Please lighten up and know that not all "christian's" wear the same clothing – so to say.
Psalm 137:9 – Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
what is the context again?
@ Jonathan,
Please tell me in what context killing a child IS acceptable...
@Fim
So why is abortion ok? That little conceived fetus is a child also...
A fetus is not a child. it is a parsite, to some, it is welcome, to others, it is not. Until the fetus is viable outside the womb, it is not a person. That is why late term abor.tions are extremely rare. Once the child is born, it has every right as you and I, until then, all the rights belong to the mother (and the father if he happens to agree with the mother).
Now Jim, why don't you support a woman's right to chose? Your god is the single largest abor.tion provider on the planet, if you bible is to be beLIEved. Think of all the pregnant mothers there MUST have been during Noah's flood. Think of all the pregnant mothers there MUST have been during the fall of Babylon. All the countless pregnant mothers murdered in all of the book of Kings... Salomon, Deuteronomy, etc...
not even any effort to interpret?
I will give you a hint
Babylonian conquerers
Whose God? Surely not the vengeful God of the Christians.
so, let me get this right, God loves us soooooo much that if we don't believe that he does, eternal damnation awaits?
yep.. makes sense right?!?!? lmao.. yeah it does, to dumb people.
not all christian's believe that god is hateful and will torture his creation indefinitely
here is what is misquoted (remember gods thoughts are not mans – very deep and tied to each other)
Rev 20:14, 21:8
The "Lake of Fire" referenced by many and wholly misinterpreted is said to be a literal Lake of Fire.
It is not. As the scripture states its meaning is the Second Death.
Rev 20:14 says Death itself is being hurled into that Lake. How can Death be hurled into a literal Lake?
The meaning is Death will be no more – a guarantee to those names written in the book of life and also Gods Holy name being vindicated, his Sovereignty returned, and his will for man to subdue the Earth and become fruitful being fulfilled despite Satan's efforts to destroy mankind.
Revelation is an amazing Prophetic vision written to be made understandable during the end for only a few who have the right heart. Even Jesus taught us to not throw our pearls to swine so many will not be receptive.
This prophecy is also tied to the Daniel and Isaiah prophecy's because it is again Gods thoughts.
So God torturing his creation is inaccurate.
Think of this simply. You not only have scriptures showing what the Lake of Fire is (second death) you also have other scriptures showing the miscalculation in thought when reading certain detail.
Compare: Rev 20:10 to Jude 7
Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning eternally – go to the site itself – there is no burning sulphur there.
To close my rant the many many many hateful heavy opinions towards christians and the bible are inaccurately attempting to misinterpret these scriptures as literal meanings of which they are not.
Having a confused christian base (like the initiator of this thread tone) does not help any. But then again the ambiguous hateful insults being thrown around with no regard for clarity or actual regard for truth are another problem altogether.
wow, you are totally delusional. No where in your interpretation did it even come close to what could have possibly meant by those passages. You need to seek some professional help.
Evolution is severely flawed – they will never admit the giant "gap" that can't be explained....nor the lack of 100% DNA matching. Stop the BS....evolution DOES NOT EXIST for human beings. Period.
As opposed to creationism? Its people like you who are the main reason the United States is lagging behind the rest of the world in science.
Evolutionists beware. Everything to you happened to be at an exact time and place. earth is not too far from the sun..... Dna is too complex..... no fossil evidence of man evolving..... i can go on and on. Let me tell you this, faith has no proof and never will have. You are never going to find life on another planet or evidence of anything. Remember scientific theory changes all the time. Evolution remains a theory. The Bible has never changed
What a ridiculous comment. The Bible has been changed countless times, usually for political reasons. Every one of your claims are false. I thought there was some obligation to be truthful in the Bible. Maybe you are not a believer after all?
Yes, but science and society have so perhaps the Bible could do with an update. It is a good book , but is a bit behind the times.
@has: "Evolution remains a theory. The Bible has never changed" Sterling evidence of stupidity incarnate. What exactly do you call the King James VERSION of the Bible? Or The New American VERSION of the Bible? Did you ever get past Sunday school? The rest of us have.
The USA is not lagging behind the rest of the world in science, if anything the USA is leading the world, but it is true that science in school in recent years has been lagging behind and the result is clear ... kids are more and more ignorant in the US and are well behind any of the kids of developed countries and religious politicians are the reason for losing the lead in this ...
SO the future of the US military is very much in jeopardy .. not the science though, because all these smart kids from abroad are coming to the US in our universities, .. of course they do not do military technology so the US will lead in science but lose wars
what a mess
individuals who do not 100% agree with evolution are not creationists
matter of fact only a small % of christians are actual creationists
many believe the days are not literal and agree that billions of yrs are at play here
for most christians being made clean is much more important than how a fish is made
dont forget most christians are quiet tax paying neighbors who obey the law
they are not perfect and neither are you
disregard any judge "mental" ones because they do not represent the true meaning of love and long suffering
A very reasonable response. Clearly, creationism is an extreme form of Christianity, but what is needed is that more reasonable people like you speak out in opposition to it being taught in our schools.
"The only thing needed for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" -Edmund Burke
I am biting my lop as I refrain from pointing out the obvious....
since when is evolution "opposed" to any other theory? i thought evolution was it? comparing evolution to creationism means its one of many theries, which means creationism can be considered. is that what youre getting at?
And your proof that evolution works for all life forms, but apparently not for humans is contained in a poorly written book from 2000 years ago? You creationists are funnier than any comedian.
It's people like you that are holding back America. You people are the reason America is losing out to countries like China who actually believe in and respect Science and don't demean it with some ridiculous myth, like Christianity.
She actually has a good point about the theory being flawed, I think there is much about evolution that we still do not understand. But is it a false theory? I think it passes the test.
Darwin's evolution theory has been around for over 100 years. It has pass the test from genetics, biochemistry, paleontology, archaeology to plate tectonics.
Some people stopped evolving 100's of thousands of years ago. If you believe in evolution that could be taken as an insult but as this lady doe not believe in evolution she can take it as a complement.
Ahh, now I can quit biting my lip. 🙂
All theories are flawed, including the theory of creation you follow. A rational person can discern what is probable and what is not.
Creation is NOT a Scientific Theory. It is purely a myth. Scientific Theories are based on observable facts, predictable hypothesis, repeatable tests, and peer review. Creation has no predictable characteristics about it, nor can any of the claims ever be repeated since they rely on "magic", and any peer review of the Genesis account of creation can be refuted in the first 16 verses of the text.
Do not EVER call Creationism a Theory... it just makes the crazies think they're on even standing with science.
I did not use the word 'scientific.'
Touché... but you did say theory of creation, and they equate that with theory of evolution...
We are on the same page however, so peace to you.
I don't know, Creationists are constantly predicting that the creator is going to return to throw all of the non believers in to hell, but he never does. Thus at best it is a failed theory.
Humanoids have 99% DNA of Chimps. FACT . If humans are so special then why are we destroying the earth? Survival of the fittest explains much.........
That Mary is just a troll trying to get a rise out of people. But sadly people are that ignorant in regards to their belief of the world. Some even state that 'Satan placed dinosaur bones in the ground'
Of course he did, what are the odds of bones surviving millions of years in the ground? DOH. 🙂
Hope you teach your children that evolution is a myth. This means my children will have an easier time competing for jobs and resources in this global economy.
Clearly, evolution does not exist for YOU, Mary
I have several hopes for you: one, that you have not/will not produce off-spring so the gene pool of narrow-minded people does not increase; that you will someday realize the Bible is nothing more than a fable put together for political gain by a King who was dying.
Charles, the brain does not create the power to keep the heart pumping!!! Where did you learn that – in Bible?
our dna is a 98 percent match to monkeys. Why would it EVER be 100 percent if we evolved from them?? The other two percent is the evolving part!! Do you have rocks in your head or sum-thing.
Sorry, Mary, but evolution DOES exist and not just for humans but for ALL LIFE FORMS. Examine the swallows on Madegascar, for example. Due to a mountain range, swallows on one side of the mountain developed traits different from swallows on the opposite side due entirely to environmental influences. Evolution has been demonstrated in laboratory experiments and can be seen in your garden. Microbes develop resistance to antibiotics through evolution. Besides, you will NEVER see 100% DNA match because it is the DNA that changes over time due to random changes. And exactly where is your "proof" of a gap that cannot be explained? Are you talking between Austraileopithicus (sp?) and home erectus? And don't even start with the "But evolution is only a theory" argument for there are many that are not in the scientific mind-set that do not know the difference between a scientific theory and hypothesis.
What a cool discovery. 30,000,000 black holes over 2 times as old as the earth. It boggles the mind!
Nice to know I guess , but no practical use. Pretty pictures.
What a load of crap!
THE GALACTIC ALIGNMENT IS COMING! Earth will be in precise alignment with the center of the Milky Way galaxy on Dec 21st 2012 at exactly 11:11 PM EST. So cool.
http://www.seti.org/doomsday-2012-factsheet
Planet Alignments: There is no alignment of planets in Dec 2012. There is an approximate lining up of the Earth and Sun and the center of our Galaxy in late December, but this happens every year. In any case, planet alignments have no effect on the Earth.
Due to how the earth's orbit is oriented in space, the earth, sun, and galactic center are in alignment twice a year. Currently, around the fist day of summer the earth is between the sun and galactic center and around the first day of winter the sun is between the earth and galactic center.
Due the the precession of the earth's axis, the exact time these alignments occurs shifts forward by about 21 minutes a year.
it seems that most galaxies including our own all have large black holes at their centers. wouldnt it be awesome if these black holes were shortcuts between the galaxies? without a shortcut even at the speed of light humans will never reach another galaxy. i know they say the pressure would crush you but no one or thing has actually tried. i wonder how long it would take a probe to reach the black hole at the center of our galaxy? light years?
Well, the black hole itself would crush you... but consider this idea instead: if you were to use the gravity of the black hole as a gravitational slingshot, then your velocity would approach that of light, assuming you just grazed the Schwarzchild radius; at that point, the time dilation effect between you and the rest of the universe would be so high that thousands of years would pass outside your spaceship for every few minutes inside. You'd be able to get from one galaxy to the next within a few days, from your point of view, although from the outside's point of view, it'd take thousands or even millions of years. See Poul Anderson's wonderful story "Tau Zero" for further information along these lines; also Larry Niven's book, "A world out of time," in which the protagonist slingshots around the center of the galaxy and returns to a far future version of Earth.
while the idea is interesting, my understanding is that when one approaches the speed of light, the difference in "light time" from "earth time" is more on the order of 100 years for about a week (which would still be a considerable amount of time to just get to our closest neighboring galaxy, Andromeda. I could be wrong, however - if someone knows for sure what the time ratio would be please chime in.
@RAHUL – you're right, except for when you get to within fractions of a percent of the speed of light – at that point, the difference begins to increase exponentially (as do the amount of energy required to get you any faster, and also your mass). The whole thing is an exponential curve, really, but you only start to notice a serious climb when you get very, very close: of course, at the speed of light itself, the gradient is infinite and thus there's no way to get there.
Read Nivens, "There is a tide"
Excellent story: I believe that one was incorporated into the "Destroyer Of Worlds" book (or one of the books in the series) which Niven and Lerner co-wrote recently; it was adapted to become part of the plot, years after Niven originally wrote it. I also deal with the concept to some extent in my three-part short story "The Hand Of God", which is a sci-fi horror yarn, available here: http://angiesdiary.com/author/opwernby/
The Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across and we are about 40,000 light years from the center (give or take). So, even if we had something that went at the speed of light, which we don't, you would be looking at 40,000 years to get there.....or just past when my mother in law normally has dinner ready.
also, as the body approaches the speed of light, it becomes infinitely heavy, this is why speed of light travel is impossible.
This is why we need warp speed!
a quick google reveals we are about very roughly 60 thousand light years away from the center of our galaxy. so if i understand correctly if we could travel at the speed of light it would take 60 thousand years to reach the black hole at the center of our galaxy. unless we can go much faster than the speed of light we are never getting out of our galaxy 🙁
The tidal forces near a black hole would rip any matter to shreds. This is the force of gravity at a large gradient. Your head would be under maybe 1 g and your feet would be at about 1000 G. Human puree.
this concepts suggests random travel. the possibility of coming back to home galaxy is zero.
Re: "millions of black holes and about 1,000 dust-obscured galaxies with very supermassive black holes at their centers, emitting more than 1000 trillion times as much light as the sun."
Might all this dust-obscured, and previously invisible, mass and energy have anything to do with – or account for – what has been attributed to "dark mass" and "dark energy"?
I think not: even these figures, impressive though they appear, are nothing compared to the amount of dark matter that's though to be out there: I believe (off the top of my head) that we're talking about something like 95% of all the matter in the universe (curiously, that would make baryonic matter – our kind of matter – the exception, rather than the rule, i.e. in reality, we're the dark matter...). In any event, the mass of these galaxies wouldn't even comprise 1% of what's out there, even in baryonic terms.
Why is white light jets being emitted from a black hole?
They're actually not white lights (that's an imaging thing so that we can see them) – they're neutrino streams. They're produced as the matter sucked into the black hole is destroyed and reduced to the level of individual quarks. The radiation is emitted as the matter reaches the black hole's Schwarzchild radius (before it gets to the point of not being able to escape any more). The forces applied to the matter by the black hole at that point are so intense that they literally rip the atoms to bits, and the neutrino radiation is a function of that activity. It appears as jets because black holes spin; this is the same reason that matter orbits it in a disc, the same way that our planets orbit our sun - there's effectively an equator: matter orbits that, and the jets of energy are concentrated and shot out at right angles from the disc, i.e. from the black hole's poles.
go back to school and take some physics and astronomy classes.
Pathetic and dangerous.
Quote:" To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. – Thomas Paine
If the previous posts are any sampling, the United Staes of the Future will become a technological backwater while the rest of the planet believes in and educates their young in SCIENCE. Religion has become a threat to national survival. That means domestic religions, not just archaic Muslim threats from the Mideast.
I actually lay awake at night fearing the American Taliban/Christian Evangelicals. What can we do? There are so many of them.
There aren't that many of them compared to the reasoned people both religious and not; they just scream the loudest. We're just letting them spout their stuff. People are starting to stand up and tell them to shut up, but now that they control half of the political spectrum in this country, we may be too late.
I concur. There's a trend towards a simple, stupid existence which pervades everywhere at present. I've actually come to believe that the number of truly intelligent people on the planet at any one time is a constant, regardless of actual population, e.g. there have always been 2 million truly intelligent people alive at any time. This is best expressed using my zeroth law of population growth: "As the population of the world increases, the sum of its IQ remains a constant."
I believe that our culture is suffering the effects of the second law of thermodynamics, we're approaching a state of maximum entropy ... soon we'll just be frozen blobs of fat on sofas facing a frozen image of Honey Boo Boo.
Specifically, it is a particular type of fundamentalism which is insisting that if it's worth knowing, it's in the book, and if it's not in the book, it ain't worth knowing. This ignorant brand of religion comes and goes, and I am so ready for it to go. Religion (organized religion) is not always like this. it wasn't like this during the Enlightenment, it wasn't even like this in the fifties and sixties.
Let me put it this way. Rational, intelligent people should be able to see that science does not and should not destroy their faith. Conversely, rational, intelligent people should be able to see that people having faith, even professing it, does not and should not destroy science, reason, or rationality.
WITH THIS ONE PROVISO: that no one should ignore the evidence of their senses, or the conclusions of rational thought.
I'd like to add something about respecting one another's views insofar as they respect yours, but, I'd like to keep this within the realm of possibility.
This is all so deep; it's hard to fathom.
We are like a grain of sand in the cosmos. We as a sub species of chimps, are just out of the cave. Like our ancestors, the Egyptains, worshipping skygods, if we survive the years and decades ahead, unless the Yellowstone caldera wipes out the planet, will look back and shake their heads at the ignorance of those believers in any "faith" or "god". It truly is ignorance personified to go to a 'temple' or so called 'sacred buiding' and "worship". It's like a bad cartoon movie really.
Very deep conclusion considering it is coming from a grain of sand. I might take the opposite stand, my grain of sand.
I we consider that maybe some force we cannot yet detect slows light down over Millions of miles of space then it would explain why we see a red shift in the light of distant objects which makes them appear to be moving away. If this is true then we need not have an expanding universe but rather a steady state one. Complicated thought? Compared to adding 11 universes to make the math q work out it is child's play. Occam/s Razor points my way.
Please show your work. (IIRC, this idea has already been tried, like pretty much every combination of possibilities that an armchair physicist can think up)
I did not know that, TY for the reply. Has anyone actually tested it though?
The speed of light is more accurately described as a coefficient equating space with time. Your supposed "slowing down" of light is utterly equivalent to the universe expanding, and so does not really describe a steady-state universe.
The idea of an expanding and then dying universe is so anthropomorphic that I find it suspect. We live and die so everything must follow that pattern.
Thank you for the replies. I still think that a small weak force that might change the speed of light much more likely the 11 universes or whatever the number is today.
Sharkmann, look up "tired light" on Wikipedia. It gives a pretty good introduction to the various combinations of things like you are suggesting that have been pretty extensively examined.
TY Brian I am doing so.
If everything is moving away from us then we must be at the center. I seriously doubt that.
Well, the tired light theory does not stand up so I must be wrong. I still cannot trust any theory that requires 11 universes to make it work though.
I don't think you fully understand M or Q theory. Its 11 Dimensions... not universes. 3 of which we see on a day to day basis in a spacial form: length,width,height 1 and depending on the theory 1 temporal : time. The remaining dimensions are not exactly something that is easy to wrap your head around. We as humans live and think in 3 spacial dimensions...
Where you are getting confused is the theory of the Multiverse... which states that in this greater spacial unit there exist several universes. Some theories say that these universes overlap and we exist in many but only see in 1... some say that all universes are basically bubbles floating in this primordial soup... etc...
I still believe in the tired light theory as they say that light is slowed by collisions with other particles which has been proven wrong, but I am postulating a weak force that slow light uniformly.That explains the lack of blur in distant observations.
Adam, I kinda think that is like solving the question of is light a wave or a particle by inventing ether.It might get the job done but ultimately it will be proven false.
the hard concept to grasp (even for me) is that the universe seems to be expanding from us is because it is expanding from every point in the universe. not from one point.
RAHUL, If that is the case , then how can galaxies collide?
Sharkmann the universe is expanding and we are not in the center. Get a balloon first, then using a marker mark 3 dots. Now try to blow air into the balloon and witness how every single point moves away from the other.. we dont have to be at the center for everything to move away from us we just need to be anywhere on that balloon 😉
Wrong. Occam's Razor points to an expanding universe: all the galactic superclusters around ours are receding and the red-shift is consistent between them. Disturbances left by the galaxies involved as they passed through areas one would've expected them to pass through given such an expansion are still visible in the microwave background.
If it is expanding then it must be finite. What is on the edge?
That's an excellent question. Realistically, there is no edge: if you were to go off in any direction in a straight line, at the speed of light, then exactly one universe lifetime later, you'd end up back where you started. The universe is a three-dimensional space wrapped around the surface of a four-dimensional hypersphere, in the same way that the surface of the Earth is a two-dimensional area wrapped around the surface of a three-dimensional sphere. To understand more about this, read up on Wikipedia, starting with the Hyperpsphere entry, and then visiting Calabi-Yau spaces and Riemann manifolds. You're going to be needing some time to do this: the entries aren't exactly quick browsing material...!
However, it is finite. Its size can be expressed as a function of the speed of light, vis-a-vis the following: it takes light exactly one universe lifetime to go around the universe once. So as the universe expands, so does the speed of light and/or the rate of flow of time, depending on how you look at it (probably a good idea to check out the special relativity and general relativity entries, too)!
So I end up right where I started, figures....
I was always under the impression that Occam's Razor states merely that the simplest solution is usually the best. So how does that explain Cosmic Infaltion? I'm curious ... Seriously ...
"I we consider that maybe some force we cannot yet detect slows light down over Millions of miles of space then it would explain why we see a red shift in the light of distant objects which makes them appear to be moving away...etc."
If magic fairies are fooling us that this is occurring then I guess we've been fooled. I guess we should stop all research? We can't detect invisible fairies or pink unicorns on the dark side of the Moon so I guess we should just not waste any more time on science. Gottcha.
When these scientists are finished with these black holes and bright galaxies I wonder if they could finaly determine if coffee is good or bad for us. It seems to be good for us for a while, then bad, then good again, etc.
Astrophysicists spend so much time consuming coffee that they don't have time to do an analysis of it.
That would be a Biochemist doing the Coffee work, not an Astrophysicist
Right theory is : Every Black Holes generates another universe which exists in another dimension. Number of universes = number of black holes.
That depends on which theory you subscribe to. In string theory there are only 10, in M theory there are only 11. In Function Space, maybe infinite. No one knows, hence theory.
Millions of black holes is only an interpetation and not a direct observation. When something appears to be impossible it is probably impossible. This "observation" requires a validation through independent means.
Sometimes my black hole takes on a more brown hue, and then some dark matter emerges, at which point the hole becomes black again...many parallel universes in there, however, never has there been a deep space probe...where no man has gone before, no man will ever go...
I forgot to mention...my black hole is definitely a Super Massive Black Hole, but again, not affilliated with any hot DOGS...or weiners or frankfurters either...
Golly, I've NEVER heard "black hole" and "uranus" jokes on an astronomy-related thread before! You're SO original! And SO clever!!! You win teh Indernetz!!!!1!11!!!1111
Ive got a better one. Black holes are what generate the material for "space" There is a reason why there is so much space being created between the largest collections of matter and the biggest balck holes in the universe ie galactic expansion.
Is there evidence that our universe exists within a black hole of another universe? Is the formation of a black hole's singularity the point of the big bang? Can the inflationary period of the big bang be attributed to matter falling in to the black hole that is our universe? I understand that many black holes have some spin associated with them, is it possible to detect whether our own universe has spin?
all is already shown at TheDimensionMachineCOM or go to amazon and type The Dimension Machine....The truth abouth the universe!!
When I get to the other side, God willing, all will be revealed. I'll know what the universe is made of. That's just one of my reasons for believing. What you believe is your business.
The other side what, exactly?
So, why did you feel it necessary it make your belief known to us while at the same time telling us you don't care what our belief is?!
You should win some kind of award for that comment.
Article says: "WISE is equipped with a telescope that captured millions of images of celestial objects, including black holes". Why didn't they show one of those images? Fail.
"God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"
~quote by Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson
+1
Or just ignorance in general.
*Farts* hmmm I can smell the gates of heaven!
“Push the boundaries of what we think is physically possible.”
Now... that would have been worth $2.5 Billion... not zapping some rocks on a dead planet...
Black holes are basically giant vacuum's.. The amount of material they consume has to go somewhere. A tear in this universe depositing a pile of particle's from a consumed galaxy.. far far away. or assuming like any sun which burns the sub-atomic particle's of helium for fuel, the black hole also converts matter into a fuel, hence the UV we see?
You're so wrong on so many things that it's hard to know where to even begin.
Information can never be destroyed, only transferred. The information contained in matter is now thought to be ejected from black holes in such events as gamma ray bursts.
Toto! Stay away from that supermassive black hole!
Finding the answer to the question was there ever life on Mars is worth every penny of $2.5 billion. The Pentagon blows that much in ONE DAY. I never hear people b!tching about that.
That's funny, I hear people complaining about the Defense budget all the time. In fact... I just did!
That 2.5 billion has already given us many gifts. Photography and lens advancements, new construction materials, advanced circuit technology, new computer and laser technologies, robotics advancements. The list goes on. We do not explore space with the single focus you seem to suggest. The cost is a drop in the bucket when compared with the value of space technologies like teflon, ceramics, circuit miniaturization, ball bearing and other industrial uses. Without it your computers, ipods, lazers, medical instruments and may other products would still be nothing more than science fiction.
Religious wars are basically people fighting over who has a better imaginary friend.- Napolean
eeeewweee...nice hero buddy.
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
GOD IS GREAT!!!!!!!!
Well, the air and water is polluted and the heavens are absolutely hostile and completely inaccessible to anyone except for a few cosmonauts and a couple of stupid robots. Can't you just hear the heavens singing his praises? Guess we were taking up too much space, so he decided to keep the rest for himself alone. Where's the Hulk when you need him?
troll
Who is "Napolean"? Did you mean "Napoleon"?
Seems to me most people talk about God just to camouflage their total ignorance. So, say "I don't know" then "I'll search."
"If Americans came from Europe, why are their still Europeans?" That's how silly that argument is.
Yeah. Why are there still Europeans??? (O.o)
Joking. I know Europeans exist to provide us civilized folk with bad fashions and good techno music.
(For the outraged and ignorant: Yes, I am still joking. Except for the bad fashions.)
Science is rad.
All powerful God has met his match, he can't create light inside of a black hole.
HAHAHA....religious followers will just tell you God doesn't need/want to create light in a black hole
Love this comment. lol
The high density of a Black Hole creates a gravitational field that prevents light waves from moving away from the object. There is light, just not any that can make it to our eyes.
Sorry I stand corrected all powerful god can't pull light out of a black hole.
That's alright ashar, keep tryin...it'll come to ya
Black holes – the universes toilet. Who, other than a plumber, wants to look into a toilet with a light anyway. I know god is not a plumber because there has to be a better way to get rid of our waste.
to explain your existence actually. the rest of us did evolve but you apparently resulted from an unevolved species "monkies" and these close relatives of yours are still around, just look in the mirror
Science and Discovery is a noble cause, but every scientist knows that the more he discovers, the more he realizes how much he doesn't know.
Religions, including Atheism, are just mental contructs that help us develop our moral centers (i.e. superego) as humans. Our brains develop these in order to increase its chance of survival among its neighbors. It's that simple.
Atheism is the absence of religion. Honestly, has anyone ever heard of the "Church of Atheism"?
True but it is an 'ism' so it may as well be a religion for all it's dogma and hatred.
Autism is an "ism" as well, is that full of "dogma and hatred" too?
Atheism is simply the absense of belief in an organized religious doctrine. I typically don't call myself an atheist in discussion, even though I technically am, because the term in America is now associated with a certainty of disbelief, which is really a belief in itself. I cannot say for certain that there isn't a force responsible for the creation of the universe, but I can for certain say that mankind is utterly incapable of comprehending this force if it exists, so therefore can we not say that the Holy Bible and any other holy books of that sort is just words created by man? I mean, if you wanted to spread a message, you'd have made that book into some universal language that everyone could read, if that was the purporse.
I find it truly wonderful that people still believe in sky fairies and the like. We aren't ready to traverse the stars yet, and that really is unfortunate, because who knows how long we have left as a species on this rock? Maybe we're doomed to be just another in a long line of extinct species?
@ ZeeDante,
You're probably Agnostic, which is a term used to qualify a level of knowledge. You don't know if there is a god, and don't know if you have the knowledge to lead you to say there is no god, so you stay neutral on the subject of "knowing" whether there is a god.
Atheist, is a lack of beLIEf in god or gods. I don't beLIEve in the existence of god or gods because there is no credible evidence that leads me to this beLIEf. Just like there is no credible proof of the existence of a jolly fat man in a red suit who delivers presents to all the good boys and girls on the night of the 24th/25th of December while riding a sleigh pulled by eight reindeer. Just like there is no credible proof of the existence of a pot of gold waiting for me at the end of a rainbow, placed there by a tiny leprechaun, etc.
Atheists don't hate your version of god, Akira, we don't worship your Satan, we just don't beLIEve either of them exists. So why do we fight against something we don't beLIEve in? Let me put it this way: If a large portion of the US population pet.itioned the government to shut down all air traffic between 6 PM 24 December and 6 AM 25 December based on the possibility of an airplane striking one of the reindeer and disrupting the delivery of Christmas presents, or that the price of coal in China be controlled in December to keep the price down (never know how many bad kids will be getting a lump of coal in their stocking this Christmas)... I'm sure you'd have to agree, would be pretty ridiculous. So for you Christians to want to prevent ab.ortions, or stem cell research or the right to die with dignity based on the premise that you think it'll offend your version of god, to me, is laughable.
There is no church of atheism that I've ever attended; we have no rituals, ceremonies, rites of passage, or any thing like that. I don't hate you, or your version of god, but I do resent the idea that you're trying to impose on the rest of society without providing any evidence for the existence of your version of god.
@ ZeeDante,
You're probably Agnostic, which is a term used to qualify a level of knowledge. You don't know if there is a god, and don't know if you have the knowledge to lead you to say there is no god, so you stay neutral on the subject of "knowing" whether there is a god.
Atheist, is a lack of beLIEf in god or gods. I don't beLIEve in the existence of god or gods because there is no credible evidence that leads me to this beLIEf. Just like there is no credible proof of the existence of a jolly fat man in a red suit who delivers presents to all the good boys and girls on the night of the 24th/25th of December while riding a sleigh pulled by eight reindeer. Just like there is no credible proof of the existence of a pot of gold waiting for me at the end of a rainbow, placed there by a tiny leprechaun, etc.
Atheists don't hate your version of god, Rosie, we don't worship your Satan, we just don't beLIEve either of them exists. So why do we fight against something we don't beLIEve in? Let me put it this way: If a large portion of the US population pet.itioned the government to shut down all air traffic between 6 PM 24 December and 6 AM 25 December based on the possibility of an airplane striking one of the reindeer and disrupting the delivery of Christmas presents, or that the price of coal in China be controlled in December to keep the price down (never know how many bad kids will be getting a lump of coal in their stocking this Christmas)... I'm sure you'd have to agree, would be pretty ridiculous. So for you Christians to want to prevent ab.ortions, or stem cell research or the right to die with dignity based on the premise that you think it'll offend your version of god, to me, is laughable.
There is no church of atheism that I've ever attended; we have no rituals, ceremonies, rites of passage, or any thing like that. I don't hate you, or your version of god, but I do resent the idea that you're trying to impose on the rest of society without providing any evidence for the existence of your version of god.
@ Akira, my appologies, the comment was directed at Rosie, not you. Sorry for the multiple posts, my internet browser wasn't showing that the comment posted. Peace.
....and 20 years from now they will discover that someone had just sneezed on the lens....next.
research evolution of humans from an actual scientific source and come back with an intelligent response.
Athieism is not a religion. It's lving without any religion. There's a big difference there.
Atheism isn't a religion. Is not believing in unicorns a religion?
Try reading some books on biology. Your scientific illiteracy and anti-intellectualism is on display for all the world to see, it's an embarrassing testament of the state of American culture these days.
Azhar's got it right...your tailbone is what's left of your ancestor's tail. Just like the leg bones of whales are remnants of their four-legged decendants, the wings of flightless birds are remnants of their flying ancestors, and the blind eyes of cave fish and salemanders are what's left of their ancestor's useful eyes. The human gene that makes helps make vitamin C – no longer functional – is another example of a vestigal structure.
And, if you want to discuss evolution without making an evolutionist facepalm at your lack of understanding the subject, I would suggest saying that we decended from ape-like ancestors (which is what evolution proposes) rather than monkeys (which are a seperate line that evolved after we branched off from a common ancestor). I'm not saying this to be condescending, but you will get more respect if you know the subject matter.
Atheism is no more a religion than baldness is a hair style.
you should probably read up on it some because you don't sound like you've really looked into it, but the "monkies" or whatever premitive species we theoretically evolved from aren't the same kind of "monkies" you see in the world modern day. The monkies you see today also evolved into their current form.... did that just blow your mind?
hey hey were the monkeys and peple say we monkey around.
but don't blame us for you guys
Just to respond to some of the religion comments. I consider myself a Christian but realize there are all sorts of opinions for and against God. I am always searching for a meaning to everything and don't hold anything against what others believe or don't. My favorite channels are the Science Channel and Discovery channels and I love learning all I can to formulate my own opinion about things. I'm thinking we probably still only know about 20% of what's out there, if that much. It seems every day there is some new discovery that either confirms a theory or denies it. The one thing that gets in the way is the bible. I believe the bible to be a good reference for living one's life but we have to remember that it was written by man, it wasn't magically sent down from God. I read one comment about God creating the world in six days to which I would say, who knows who's clock God is on if that was the case. Time is relative. I just can't figure why agnostics and non-believers have such a problem with people that have religious beliefs, what's it hurting? And yes there are those who take advantage of others through religion but that is up to every individual to make their choice. The saddest thing that I can think of is leaving this world one day and not understanding it all but maybe its not meant to be understood. Ever since I was a kid, I've been asking 'yeah, but what came before that?', I probably will ever know but it sure is great trying to find out...
"I just can't figure why agnostics and non-believers have such a problem with people that have religious beliefs, what's it hurting?"
I am agnostic and could care less what religion you believe. When you start pushing your religion on me, telling me I am going to hell and I need to find god, that is where I have a problem. I also have a problem when you start trying to create laws in the name of religion, and have an even bigger problem when you discriminate against a group of people because of what the bible says. All happen pretty much on a daily basis.
AMEN!!
I understand your point and I agree. I've always believed churches were started just to pull out the last nickel or dime out of people. I think you can gather just about anywhere without the need for fancy buildings, its the fellowship that is important. I don't try to push my religious beliefs on anyone. I will debate my differences but know I certainly don't know everything. If people would ignore those people you refer too, they would slowly dissolve away, but try not to pigeon hole all Christians.
"If people would ignore those people you refer too, they would slowly dissolve away, but try not to pigeon hole all Christians."
If we ignored those people, this country would quickly turn into a theocracy. There would be no progress and even more people would be discriminated against based on religion. I never stated ALL christians are this way, but the vast majority are. And that makes sense that they would be. When you cling to such an absolute stating that the christian god is the only true god, one must find a way to convince everyone of the "truth". In reality, they are only trying to convince themselves.
20% is probably pushing it also 🙂 Even Einstein compared what he knew to being on a beach and picking up a few pebbles to examine. I personally think there are limits to what we can know. For example the speed of light being the universal speed limit is one time limit that definitely gets in the way of what we can possibly know.
Its funny you bring up the speed of light. Maybe I just don't understand enough but if it is the maximum speed, how are we looking back in to time at the beginning of creation through telescopes, if that light is just now getting to us? I could see if we were at the very edge of the universe as it expands and looking back, maybe, but there is space before us and past us. The initial expansion of the big bang would have had to spread things out a billion times the speed of light.
@Marc: The speed of light is only part of the equation. We can see back billions of years into the early universe because the big bang was not just an explosion of matter, but actually an expansion of space itself. And that expansion is not constrained by our so called "universal speed limit". Also, observation of distant objects is not the only way the age of the universe can be measured. Things like cosmic background radiation have also been used to date the big bang.
This. Religion is fine in a closed environment where it won't affect anything else, but that's not how it works. The Evangelical movement in this country is trying to change us into a Theology with a close-minded viewpoint based on a literalist viewpoint of a 2000+ year old book. They look upon their ignorance as being just as valid as real knowledge.
I fully realize that not every Christian is science-blind and wants to turn the world into one dominated by their dogma, but instead of wondering why Athieists are constantly slamming Christianity maybe you should be wondering why those with both faith and reason aren't joining in the fight against the most dangerous threat to not only science, but freedom that this country has ever seen? The Evangelical movement may not be flying planes into buildings, but what they suggest is just as dangerous and close-minded than the rants of an Al-Qaeda leader.
I agree for the most part with you. I think we have a lot more problems with our political system than the religious right though. I think sometimes that things are being run not only here in the US but throughout the whole world by a few and I would bet they don't have the least bit of interest in God except what it will pay them.
I disagree, the Religious Right has screwed the whole process. The entire spectrum has moved so far right in my lifetime that there's no way Reagan could run as a candidate for his own party. That's messed up, and it's the fault of all of us for not telling the Joel Olsteens and Focus on the Family's of the world to shove off. Sure, there are a lot of problems, but the rise of the Religious Right has only magnifyed the problems.
The only reason they aren't flying planes into buildings is they own the buildings
lol, i agree. I figured it was much lower but most wouldn't have believed me.. 🙂
I think if more Christians thought like you, there wouldn't be a problem! Many of the greatest thinkers throughout human history (in fact I would say the vast majority) believed in God. Science and religion could get along quite nicely if people were just a little more open minded.
Every galaxy has a black hole. The size and rotation of the black hole determines the size and rotation of the galaxy. Despite a galaxy's size, gravitational forces are exerted to the very edge of the boundary. Black holes should be viewed as the nucleus of a galaxy. Young powerful black holes spin rapidly and draw in more material which creates larger galaxies, i.e. more dust thus producing greater star and planetary material.
Hmmm...so it's kind of like we're circling around in a giant toilet bowl waiting to get flushed down the drain...
Essentially, yes. Except the drain here is intense crushing force.
Now I know why my life seems to do nothing by go around in circles.
I think that the jury is still out on whether EVERY galaxy has a Super Massive Black Hole (SMBH) at its core. I don't follow your reasoning on the rotation part, though, unless you're referring to angular momentum. Perhaps the Colandra Effect which states that a viscous fluid (water, for example) drags a less viscous fluid (air, in this example) along with it, is at play. And before anyone has a conniption, space can easily be considered a fluid for it is far from "empty".
Also, it is my understanding that "young" black holes are infinitly less powerful than a SMBH since a black hole's "power" is a function of its mass. Black Holes are not born Super Massive ... they get that way by Hoovering all matter within its gravitational well. Matter at the galactic boundary (or even relatively close, such as ourselves) definitely feel the effects of the SMBH at our galactic center, else we'd spin off into intergallactic space. Just my $0.02 worth ...
I don't know why I'm even going to try, but here goes:
We didn't evolve from monkeys (note the proper spelling of the plural form of "monkey"). The primates of today and humanity share a common ancestor. Yes, I know it doesn't say this in your book, but that's how it went in reality.
Who decided the bible was knowledgeable about God, Was it God?? Now get the fact that theology is like science. Alot of theory without anyway to understand or measure the actual possibilities without being able to see every variable with clarity and logic. Now if we can just get accurate redshift measurements from the fringes of our visible universe, we can get a more accurate estimate on the radial magnification of our expansion and could actually get a somewhat accurate size of the universe in its entirety, Then we would have a decent shot at overall age and time frames from planc to recombination. Unlike science and creation, God is an absolute inevitability and the bible cannot measure anything except the naivety of man and the foolishness of those who reject God existence. Not so much because some dumb book lies. But because they have no way to understand how many variables that existance has or how they combine within a causal/effect combination. So please spare us your atheist spout cause it makes you look ignorant to the learned. After all isn't it about how you look... (at it.)
"God is an absolute inevitability and the bible cannot measure anything except the naivety of man and the foolishness of those who reject God existence."
Please provide proof of this statement. Me thinks you cannot.
"Who decided the bible was knowledgeable about God, Was it God??"
And BTW, the bible was written by a bunch of men over many years then edited by more men to fit their agenda. It was not written or inspired by god, but by men who want to control populations and be wealthy. So to answer your question, people decided the bible was knowledgeable about god.
Explain weak minded
What a bunch of pseudo-intellectual bull stuff. Take a logic class sometime.
No one who understands the Theory of Evolution would say that humans evolved from monkeys.
Finally a leap forward!! Thank you so much! Have a good one. 🙂
It's sad that the wonders of science are wasted on the idiots who insist upon believing in primitive religions.
Yes it is very sad for the whole human race. If we could get along we could build something spectacular on this planet.
Apes, not monkeys. They're still around because they evolved from the same, long extinct creature humans have.
We share common ancestors, but we are not direct descendants of them. Pick up a book other than the bible and maybe you'll learn something new!
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I want that program! Do you have that character on your keyboard?
Since religion and the bible seem to be a prevalent subject in this discussion, let me say first that the bible was never intended to be a scientific text book. I see the universe that we are discovering as a look into the beauty that god has created and more importantly in the way god has created and continues to create the universe.
Wow what a giant cop-out just so you can still believe your ridiculous fairy tale.
Well said Dale.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the only weapon of the loser.
Way to attack someone who's attempting to find common ground.
Well said!
To clarify, well said David.
I thought it was done in six days...
According to Genesis 2, it was one day. Didn't know that, did ya? Also, according to Genesis 2, man was created first then the other animals (completely contradicting Genesis 1). If the Bible is the Word of God, God seems to have been a bit confused.
Yep, it was never intended to be correct or truthful, just believe it.
AND NO DANCING
It's kind of sad seeing people say ridiculous things like this. To those who CANT believe in your fairy tales, you act as a stubborn child who refuses to listen to the truth. Of course the Bible wasn't a science book. The problem is, lots of other people think it is. It is therefore dangerous. Foreign policy is often dictated by religion. Israel ring a bell? Thanks for continuing to promote the ideals that are destroying the world and preventing good science like this article from really making people say WOW! The stories of the bible are false. Noah never lived to be 901 years old. God didn't create rainbows to remind himself not the flood the world again. Stop the lies and propaganda already!
Your BRAIN is a fairytale. Every scientist knows that the more he discovers, the more he realizes how much he doesn't know.
Religions, including Atheism, are just mental contructs that help up develop our moral centers (i.e. superego) as humans. Silly rabbit.
Religion is based on blind faith, try to prove anything that you find in a written religious text or what you hear in church.
Science is based in fact and proof of that which starts with theories.
Every time science threatens to disprove anything pertaining to religion, those who follow with blind faith just claim that the idol of the day created the new scientific discovery. Prove it....uh NOT gona happen but it doesn't matter because religious followers will simply state that faith is all they need and they don't need proof!
So here it is....Science created religion and all idols who have been and will ever be worshipped.
The scientific discoveries of today are way beyond the scope of any religious text written centuries, if not millennia ago. And for those claiming their text has scientific foreknowledge, those kinds of prophecies are always made *after* the fact, not before; not to mention they are co-opting all the real hard work that the scientists have done.
Sometimes the ignorance spouted on this site is painful to read. The Bible the old testament at least was taken from the Torah which is written in classical Hebrew, it was then translated to Aramaic, then to Greek then to Latin , then to gothic English and finally modern English. So for all the biblical scholars here which book is it that you follow.
Um....what difference does that make? A fairy tale in any language is still a fairy tale.
Not exactly. The Torah is only the first 5 books of what is now called (by Christians) the Old Testament. Some books of the Old Testament were written in Greek. All of the New Testament was written in Greek. The original Hebrew and Greek books of the Old Testament, and the Greek books of the New Testament, were translated into Latin in the 4th century by St. Jerome. The King James Bible was a translation from the Hebrew and Greek original (again) into Elizabethan English in 1611. If you're going to attempt some sort of smart-a$$ remark based on translations, you should at least know what you're talking about.
I am not even going to reply other than to say, I read your comment and stand by mine.
Oh my! All of this super-geek speak is making want to dust off the ole pocket protector. ahhh-hemmmmk, snnnrrrrrfffff , chemmmmrrrrkkkk fsnarrrrrrfffff, ahkeemmmmm,,,, excuse me please!!
You are no longer allowed to use a computer. They're made by geeks. Instead, you have to live in a forest with no electricity and you have to make your home out of rocks. Good luck, I'm sticking with the geeks.
Interesting how thermodynamics tells us that systems decay and break down over time......Evolution on the other hand describes about how systems become more complex and ordered over time.
Which is it?
Seems like mutually exclusive ideas to me.
OH that's right. The theory of evoulution is still just that..............a theory.
BASZINGA!
A theory to SOME....
LOL!
One, it's "Bazinga" without an s.
Two, you obviously don't know what "theory" means in scientific terms. A scientific theory is defined as such: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Thanks to the work of scientists like Charles Darwin and all those that have come since, we have a veritable mountain of data to support the Theory of Evolution. That is not to say that evidence won't come out in the future to tweak or even obliterate the theory in the future. However, equating the rise and fall of galaxies over billions of years to that of lifeforms who are lucky to last a million before dying off to make way for the next wave of life is way off base.
That's exactly why living things die, and once dead, stay dead because they decay and break down over time.
Even you will decay and break down.
It seems your knowledge of thermodynamics begins and ends with the idea that 'things decay over time.' It is true, by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that *in a closed system* entropy (i.e. disorder) will maximize. However, another consequence is that in a system *with energy flowing through it* entropy will decrease – there will be a drive to form more orderly structures. Like for example the surface of a planet with light shining on it, as a driving force for sustaining and developing life.
True systems break down and decay over time, but when they don't have an external energy source. We have the Sun pumping energy into the Earth as visible light and the Earth emits that into space as infrared radiation. Entropy is still increasing. You turn the sun off, life is going to be gone soon after.
So you think that humans are thermodynamically more ordered than Great Apes?
There is no conflict between thermodynamics and evolution. Ilya Prigogine won a Nobel prize for describing the phenomenon of dissipative structures. Here is a quote from the article about Prigogine in Wikipedia:
Prigogine is best known for his definition of dissipative structures and their role in thermodynamic systems far from equilibrium, a discovery that won him the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1977. In summary, Ilya Prigogine discovered that importation and dissipation of energy into chemical systems could reverse the maximization of entropy rule imposed by the second law of thermodynamics.
Order to disorder in a _closed system_. The earth is not a closed system... the biosphere gets plenty of energy both from the sun and from the core.
You have a very poor understanding of the Laws of Thermodynamics, and of Science in general.
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that "the entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium almost always increases over time." The Earth is not an isolated system. If it were, we would not receive any light or heat from the Sun, and no light, energy, or matter from anywhere outside our own atmosphere.
A naive and common misinterpretation of the second law of thermodynamics. Also, a naive and common misunderstanding of the definition of "theory." I could refute your argument here, but it has been done many, many times in excruciating detail. I would recommend some basic research on the topic before acting like you are an expert.
This guy is to Physics what Rep Akin is to Biology.
Overall the system is proceeding to disorder (The solar system). In the case of our planet it is the input of solar energy that allow the incease in order
Yes, a theory. Like gravity.
Or electromagnetism, quantum mechanics, plate tectonics, relativity, molecular theory, cell theory, the germ theory of disease ... the list goes on and on, all JUST theories, none of them proven because theories are ALWAYS provisional, subject to falsification. Somehow we've managed to build some rather incredible technologies based on these mere THEORIES. Strange, isn't it?
lmfao
Exactly!
OK first of all: you can't make an assesment of my knowlege based on a few statements so saying that my understanding of science in general is a leap.
Second: if we expand our understanding of a 'closed system' to the solar system (or even the galaxy) then the entropy vs evolution argument remains vaild.
Keep throwing red herrings at those who would otherwize fall for it. Either way, in the words of Frank Herbert:
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true or false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced. #
— Frank Herbert
Dudes, it works both ways.
Red Herring your way out of that.
BOH-ZINGH-AH
(I spell it any way I want) lol
"Second: if we expand our understanding of a 'closed system' to the solar system (or even the galaxy) then the entropy vs evolution argument remains vaild."
If by this you mean that someday, far in the future, life on earth will cease to grow more complex and our planet will decay, then you are correct.
But until that time, there's plenty of gas in the tank... plenty of sunshine beaming down on this planet and plenty of geothermic activity taking place deep under the sea. Life will keep on rolling and doing its thing: growing, changing, and evolving until calamity or time breaks it down.
Nope, no theory. You can actually watch it happen. Heard of drug resistant bacteria? That's evolution.
The sad thing is that even if Sandman reads all of the responses to his post that show where he is mistaken he is still going to post the same nonsense the next time there is a similar article.
And what pray tell is science searching for? The origin of life, where it began, who created it, where are we going, who is in charge, is there anybody out there, are we alone in this vast multiverse? What will happen when we DO find another life forms lower/better than us humans, will we communicate, explore, collonize, exploit, kill, subjugate, inslave, or will we end up being served for dinner ourselves. I guess its just human nature to live even if we die trying.
The answers to all of your questions and a million more are what we seek.
bottom line....all this is a big guess....how about we feed the people who are here I could careless what a speck on a telescope is....science waste more money....4 billion dollars to tell us thier are rocks on mars....great....so we send another one up there and guess what ROCKS ON MARS shocker....this is all BS...we don't know we will never know so move on.
The Olympics cost $14 billion and we didn't even learn anything from that.
Money is going to be spent. It doesn't matter which side of the aisle is in charge. I'd vastly prefer the money being spent is spent on expanding knowledge than killing people or devising new ways to kill people. Would you prefer that we just learn nothing? If so, I hope you're in charge of nothing more important than a lawnmower.
The $4 billion spent to send curiosity to Mars didn't fall into a black hole – we'd have seen x-rays come back if it had. Instead, it went to employees. NASA engineers earned that money. Civilian contractors earned that money. People earned that money, and used that money to feed and house their families.
What did we get back for that money? More evidence that Mars could once have supported life. Oh, and other side benefits like cameras that fit in your cell phone that can match those used by George Lucas to film Star Wars. Robotics advances that can help amputees move their prosthetic limbs and live independent, productive lives. Propulsion technologies that can help us maintain our GPS, communication, and HDTV satellites.
If you want to focus on what else that $4 billion could have done, that's fine, but if you try to say it did nothing, you're only fooling yourself.
another person against science. sigh.
I'd rather have my taxes go here than throwing my money away to a church.
Oh, don't be such a party-pooper. How do you think we went from stone tools to thermonuclear tools? Do you not like living in your comfortable house and having your wife survive childbirth?
If everyone thought like you we'd still be living in the Dark Ages.
Extremely cool but a little more scary than when we thought Black Holes were rare. Yet I guess only being in the millions compared to the billions of things in the universe is not too bad. There's probably 10 times more than what they think though.
It is not impossible to believe in the bible and science. Man is telling us what's happening in the universe based on theories. At one point, people believed the earth was flat. We now know the earth is round and we are held to this planet by the law of gravity. Well what sets the law to work on earth and not in space. It is a given. You have to accept it as it just is. Science can't explain why gravity exists. You see the effects of gravity but it's not tangible. How do you know what's in a black hole or what's in the next galaxy or what's on pluto. Science changes all the time. Pluto used to be considered a planet, now is a dwarf planet because of more knowledge. When it comes to belief and science, you have to stay open or you will never learn anything. You start is a basic law and build. The bible is disigned to help with perspective of life not science. You can have both. Knowing what is on pluto does not have day to day life application. I would encourage people to talk to an open-minded person who believes in the bible, and a person who is strict on the bible to speak to a person of science and find a common ground. No differences are resolved on any comment section on a website. JUST BE OPEN. ....
I typed quickly so excuse the typos.
You stated, "Science can't tell us why gravity exists", obviously you are not a scientist. But not to get bogged down in specifics, just look at the arc of our human understanding. At one point lightning was the gods. We could not understand how it was created. Now we know, and it is not the gods. Example after example and here we are, where almost everything that was once attributed to gods is now explained naturally. Your gods have a smaller and smaller place to hide. If you follow the arc to its logical end then it would appear that one day your mythical gods will have no where left to hide except fairy tale books.
That is a greek mythology. The bible has nothing to do with that.
Science can and has explained gravity: mass. The source of mass? The Higgs Boson. Yes, science changes all the time and, almost always, for the better. We know so much more about this third rock frm the sun due entirely to science and the never ending search for answer to the One Big Question: "Why". We've been to the moon (RIP Neil Arden Armstrong), we've sent rovers to Mars in search for answers. Voyager 2 is beyond the heliosphere, all in a quest for knowledge. Anyone that does not, or refuses to, learn something new every day is destined to die ignorant. Just my $0.02 worth.
Bill Nye, Neil DeGrasse Tyson... these are people you should introduce your kids too not Father/Minister/Shaman/Sheik/Rabi xyz
Kids are more likely to be molested by a priest than a scientist.
good point.
In response to a comment earlier about mutations:
I think what scientists mistake for mutation or accident – God put there on purpose to encurage veriety.
Just my 2 cents. 🙂
which god....
and send him a thank u for me on the intelligent design that shuts down rape causing pregnancies
"Variety."
Your Christianity is evident.
opps, a spelling mistake obviously negates my point. (grasping at straws my friend?) .....lol
@GH +1, well played sir!
Think about it...some mutations might be us evolving....
If God designed the universe, why would he (she/it) need to "encourage variety". If God designed it, wouldnt it be perfect to begin with? "Variety" would be extremely important, however, to help correct the problems that arise from evolution.
Sandman, cancer is a variety then.... Science paints a more fascinating and logical picture of the world than religion could ever hope to. Even when we don't have all the answers yet.
Go pray or something and let the human race discover and learn.
Actually, it's two mistakes. 'encourage' and 'variety' but the brutally indoctrinated can't be expected to be great spellers. Or great anything for that matter. ;op
God planted the dinosaur bones to confuse scientists.
Oh really? Proof? You probably think the same about oil and natural gas, too, right? And the seashells near the top of Everest? All planted by your loving god (lack of capitalization intentional) just to confuse the innocent? And this rock is how old? 6000 years? Sorry, but I must disagree. My parents have been after me for years to "get saved." My primary reason for not following their belief systems is that is simply makes no sense to me or for me. Period. I can test for air, I can test for radiation and many other thigs I cannot see. But there is no test for the existence of a supernatural being, BY DEFINITION. I once lived 2 blocks from the Missouri border in Kansas City, Kansas ... across the border, their favorite saying is "Show Me" ... and that's what I say to those that tell me that my strictly honorable life is going to send me to Hell ... show me the proof. Using the scientific method, prove your point. "If you only had faith." Faith depends on BELIEF and if you don't believe, you can never have faith.
The problem with using a "that piece of evidence is only there because an omnipotent being wants it to be there" approach is that it is logically impossible to disprove. To give you an example, prove that I am not the one that causes mutations. You could say "But you didn't cause mutations because you are humans and humans don't have that power" to which I would reply "but I only appear to, because I choose to, because I'm an omnipotent being." Then you might say, "so make something mutate again" and I'd say "nope don't wanna." And you'd say "well why don't you wanna do what I'm asking you to do" and I'd say, "you could never understand because unlike me, you aren't an omnipotent being." And we'd go round and round. (as a disclaimer, to the best of my knowledge I am not an omnipotent being) Thats why I prefer to simply ignore the possibility of an omnipotent being, until such time the omnipotent being decides to give some more definitive proof (such as turning us all into ducks).
Until you can prove god exists I don't see any reason to debate what he/she/it could or couldn't do.
Is there any topic you won't infect with your ignorant scrawlings? Crawl back into your cave, this article is about science, not politics.
You'd know because you've been in them?
Well played... even in theme with the article... nicely done.
Using the most powerful telescope on earth, they zoomed in on the largest black hole and noticed just outside its event horizon a seemingly derelict ship holding position with the markings of the U.S.S. Cygnus.
Are you sure it wasn't the "Event Horizon" returning from its expedition?
Not as a kid, "Event Horizon" would have scarred me to death.....I would have never opened another science book
typo , sorry
"Research published last year suggested that at least 30 million black holes had formed before the universe was 1 billion years old."
--I'd love to see this "research". How could they possibly know how old the universe is? If someone knows...please enlighten me.
Do your own research, Google is your friend
I would like a word with you sir
If you don't know how the universe's age is measured, you would be completely lost reading their report.
You're probably right. Wonder if there's a "Universe for Dummies"......
Read the science journal Nature:
www(dot)nature(dot)com/news/record-breaking-black-holes-fill-a-cosmic-gap-1.9553
and
www(dot)nature(dot)com/nature/journal/v466/n7310/abs/nature09294(dot)html
Look at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which gives an estimate of 13.75 +/- 0.11 billion years old. There is also corroborating evidence based on the universe expansion and age of stars. So far all of them are in agreement.
They are way off...it is very much older.
The problem is with a lack of an education in science or math, you won't be able to understand the research....
Let's see if I can give a rudimentary explanation. When the Big Bang happened, matter moved away from a central point and ever since the universe has expanded in all directions. By measuring the rate of those masses expansion relative to years, and using a model that then reverses the expansion to the point of the Big Bang, the age of the universe is calculated.
....that actually made some sense....lol thanks 🙂
It's all relative to Earth anyways. The universe is much younger if you calculate it in Jupiter years
The Hubble ST showed multi-universes which existed in bubbles. Time may be counted for the BIG BANG of our localized bubble to be somewhat accurate. How could we possibly know the timeline associated with these other bubbles, rates of expansion, collapse? So even if we are right we have no idea of the the other universes, bubbles, whatever.
uh – please show us where the Hubble discovered multiple universes – identify the source
@SkyWatcher: Whisky Tango Foxtrot, over? I've been a HUGE fan of Hubble since well before its launch, have examined a large number of images received from Mr. Hubble's telescope and have NEVER seen evidence of "bubbles" or any dimension aside from the three we exist in. Like another poster asked: What proof are you offering up? I would like to see examples of said "bubbles" that lie outside a champaign glass ...
Watch the Science Channel and you will be able to learn all about it in easy to understand presentations about all aspects of the workings of this universe.
You are talking about billion of light years,but people cannot travel even one light year
So? Did you have a point?
It kind of Bummed me out when I realized Space colonization isn't feasible. We got one earth to play with.
I always enjoy reading this stuff. To bad I will be dead before we will have any capabilities to explore the universe.
I had heard the rumor that hot dogs contained rat droppings, but I would have never guessed black holes. I will remember this the next time I go to the ball game and get the nachos instead
I believe that should be dust-obscured galaxies, not "dust-observed."
And can someone explain to me why the Bible would enjoin us against learning more about the universe?
You are right Dave about the typo – I have fixed it.
Thanks!
Elizabeth Landau, CNN
the bible will agree with this after the roman catholic church agrees with it
I am tired of all the Creationists (they only exist in USA, and only since the 60s) that reject all sciences on the base of the Bible. For your information, two Popes (you know, the guy in white [not from the KKK, but from Vatican, in Rome, Italy] that is the Voice of God on Earth), namely Pius XII and Benedict XVI, claimed that the Big Bang is the single most important theory proving the existence of God (you can google the last declaration from January 2011).
Popes rejected Creationism and its claim that earth was created 9K years ago... so stop living under a rock and embrace science as a way to understand and embrace creation (i.e. the Universe in which we are but a grain of sand), divine or not.
Your rock is not the full universe, your single point of self-centered importance. Learn, Evolve, and Grow-Up from your dream fantasies.
After that, we can discuss about the Big Bang and its relation (or not) to God, but Galileo died for our sins, long ago, because he dared consider that the earth is not flat (which was known and proven in ancient greece), and worse of all, that it was (or you were) not the center around which all universe was turning.
The bible tells just enough about this world as is needed. It is basically (and I am not making light of it) the owner's manual for the human soul. I wish it would have shed more light on just our universe, if nothing else. Science is for the physical and the Bible for the spiritual. I believe in and respect both. As mark wrote" science is rad", I just wish it would show more about the universe in my lifetime.
Where does the bible say that
Brilliance. This universe has it.
"before the universe was 1 billion years old" – not true, the universe is infinity years old
Not really,
As soon as Hubble saw the universe expanding, the theory that the universe was in a steady state and had always been there was put to rest for the most part. Doing the math and going backwards at the speed at which the universe is observably expanding gives us an age of the universe that, if it did not begin, at least it recycled. This has been confirmed by other experiments (I think the measurment of the cosmic background radiation are consistent with thiis)
Current M theory has a metaverse that is eternal (or at least, has not beginning in its current theory). This metaverse contains many universes, each one having a beginning and ending.
So, the metaverse is infinite, but the universe is not.
heard of the big bang?
lol, present your case infinity.
Infinity is right. Time is really just the unfolding of events in the spacetime of our universe. So, at the very beginning, like millionths of billoinths of a second, every thing that exists was moving around and reacting existing in the first "moments of time" The same happens today, everything is just really really spread out, and it happens "slower", relative to the early days of the universe, but there is still the same amount of matter/energy. Time cannot exist without space, and events which occur in said space. Thw universe started as a point and still can be seen as a point, if you stand far enough back lol, but whats the difference? If you were able to view the universe as the same size, from the time it was born until today you would not see any change in time, from your perspective. Sorry if thats really out there.
With such a potent telescope, hasn't NASA been able to see the red kachina with horns approaching our solar system yet?
Wow very interesting!
"Let us open new channels, not of trade, but of thought." (Henry David Thoreau)
Cool report.
These guys have the coolest jobs, after Anthony Bourdain!
This is such a waste of money. If you want true knowledge, read the Bible. There's a reason every library has like 20 copies of the one true WORD OF GOD.
Silly Troll.
Because the bible has taught us... What?
Nothing, that's what. Nothing useful at all. Science is what allows you to post your narrow ideas on the internet, which was developed by, oh right, science. Science that helps you live longer and healthier, science that has allowed us to get from one location to another faster through cars, trains, and airplanes. Science that broadcasts your republican candidates into thousands of homes all across the US and the rest of the world. Science that makes life just so much better.
But hey, this is a waste of time right? So is the rest of science, right? Because of the bible. Yep. The bible must have it all figured out.
Or it doesn't have anything figured out because despite numerous new editions and edits, it hasn't really changed much since 1611. And we're confused on what is a waste of time?
Yeah, the Bible has taught us nothing. Love your neighbor. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not lie. Honor your mother and father. Who needs wisdom like that, when it's easier to make a wreck of your life by self-indulgence and then whine about the consequences. Bible. Who needs it....
@ Manny
you don't need a Bible to figure that out... Not to Mention you can get he same kind of code of conduct for morals from a My Little Pony episode as you can from the Bible.. Less murder too.
Manny if you need a book to tell you not to murder or steal, you are not really moral
And don't forget, Manny, that you can't wear two different kinds of cloth at the same time, or trim your beard.
@Manny
I don't need the Bible. Never have, never will. Why? Because my Honor Code states that I will not lie, steal or cheat. I've added a fourth clause that, while not strictly pertaining to honor, states that I will not be judgemental towards those that are different from me, REGARDLESS. So why need ten rules that most people either do not know or refuse to follow when I can get by with three that are far more restrictive than anything in your book? If religous people were honorable (see televangelists cheating on their wives then begging forgiveness) and non-judgemental (see bigotry, discrimination against gays, blacks, et al) this third rock from the sun would be a far better place to be.
Why stop there? Why not replace all library books with Bible? Every libary should have at least 20,000 copies of Bible and a few copies of Intelligent Design to replace those books on evolution.
No thanks. I like medicine, science, and not dying at the age of 40 from magical powers that are beyond your comprehension (aka, viruses)
LOL ignorance is bliss...u do know the bible was written by men, and then arranged by other men to hold onto their power, right?
Are you talking about the book of mormon?
No, they are talking of about the book of moron. 😉
Searching for scientific knowledge is never a waste of time. In the end, as your understanding of scripture and science broadens and deepens, you will find that they are actually not in conflict. Indeed, they lead to the same place. The Truth.
You are correct. They lead to the fact that there is no God.
yeah, find excuses to hold on to your faith...
To think that all that you did in the name of faith all your life was a waste of time is dreadful. Isn't it ?
The only thing I believe in is Mother Nature and her magic wand of accidents. She also teamed up with Tinker Bell and her mutation wand.
Mother Nature? Tinker Bell?
You pagan fairy worshiper! 🙂
Mother Nature? Tinker Bell?
You pagan fairy worshiper! 🙂
Well that's incredibly ignorant and close minded of you. How do you know GOD doesn't want us to explore the Universe? Just because we explore the Universe and use science doesn't mean we don't believe in GOD, read the bible, etc.
Neither Romulans nor Klingon believes in God.
" How do you know GOD doesn't want us to explore the Universe? Just because we explore the Universe and use science doesn't mean we don't believe in GOD, read the bible, etc."
How do you know there is a god in the first place? do you possess some sort of magical superpower I do not that lets you affirm this?
It is called "faith" for a reason.
"It is called "faith" for a reason."
LOL and what reason is that? So you can feel better about yourself for believing in something with zero proof?
Hi Jenny,
Actually I talked to him last Thursday (apparently I ran into a guy who works at a church who said we all could talk to god), and he mentioned space exploration was fine. Funny thing though, he did say not to look behind the moon. I'm guessing that's either where he's hiding, or that's where he's stashed his weed.
Anyway, just wanted to let you it's cool with him.
Before debating what god would want us to do you have to prove god even exists. I won't hold my breath.
The bible was able to be written, printed and distributed thanks to . . SCIENCE!
+1
Science 1
Bible Thumpers 0
GO science!
@Sinfully Yours LMFAO out of my chair and on the the floor.. lmao
People like you scare me, Romney 2012. Do you really believe that??? Just the fact that you support Romney makes me question your credibility without even reading your comment.
Good point LOLWHAT.
If only the Bible was able to tell us about bacteria and viruses. Why we should refrigerate and pasteurize food. How to build a GPS device, how to build a computer so we could instantly find out information about the world around us. There was a time when people only read the Bible and didn't do any scientific research. It was called the Dark Ages.
Welcome back. Hope you brought a candle.
Signed,
Your friends at the RNC
Where does the Bible say to not study the world and universe around us? If God wants us stupid in everything other than Theology, then I welcome Hell. At least there will be people there with a broad scope of topics to discuss.
Well, if you really read into the politics of the whole Forbidden Fruit jazz, it DOES sort of point in that direction ("don't seek knowledge...knowledge bad!"). I suppose you can get into a big "well, then, who WROTE it?" flap, but really what does it matter if your opinion gets heard on a CNN blog's comment section? I mean, it's sort of lame to even worry about it, i'nnit?
" If you want true knowledge, read the Bible. There's a reason every library has like 20 copies of the one true WORD OF GOD."
Ok, first, that is not the word of god that you speak of. those are the words of many men over a long period of time, then edited by more men to fit an agenda of money, power and control. History has taught us this. You are oblivious to it.
Second, There is also a copy of the bible in every seedy dump of a motel across the country. Is there a reason for that too?
Didn't HLN report a few weeks ago that they were replacing bibles with 50 shades of grey in hotels and motels??? They may have been joking, tho.
If you want to understand GOD try studying his creation instead of depending on gibberish created by scared ignorant paranoid conservative knuckleheads thousands of years ago.
Grow up!
Boy does your comment show your intellect level. Then your name shows that you are dumber than we thought.
And there it goes. No matter what science accomplishes, some moron has to appear going on about god, and about how evil science is. To do so, he uses a computer which was developed by science, which communicates through a network which was developed by science, bouncing signals off a satellite which was put in orbit by science, and his ridiculous messages are read by people making use of the same science to do so. If science is evil, then go and live in a cave, dress in skins, and die of starvation and exposure before you reach 30, along with the half million other human beings on the planet.
Science is rad.
Yes sir......yes it is